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Author Topic: Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition  (Read 26339 times)

Offline supermuble

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« on: May 17, 2007, 05:15:43 am »
1983 & 1984 22RE with Megasquirt Ignition
2 Modules - Stock Toyota Igniter and Bosch Hall sensor Module

(Easier than internal VR and coil driver in MS)

I built a working spark system for use with an Early Toyota igniter and distributor. This setup can be used with Megasquirt (all versions). My setup uses a Bosch module to drive the coil. The Toyota igniter is simply used as a "signal" feed into the Megasquirt.

The 22R uses a VR sensor distributor. These distributors put out an alternating current, going from positive to negative. This signal cannot trigger a coil or trigger a regular Megasquirt without special modifications. To make it easier, the VR signal must be converted over into a DC signal that is either on or off. This DC signal is the same as a "Hall" signal from most Volkswagen and Chrysler distributors. You can check if you have a VR sensor by spinning a distributor manually and checking the voltage across the 2 output wires. It should register about (.2 - .5) AC volts when turned by hand.

The Toyota igniter box converts the alternating current from the distributor wires into a DC pulse that is either on or off. This pulse controls the coil. When the igniter box grounds the negative coil wire, the coil builds energy. When the igniter box shuts the pulse off (zero volts) then the coil throws a spark. The length of time that the igniter builds the spark is determined by the speed and the distance of the magnetic trigger wheel in the distributor. At a very slow idle the spark will have more dwell and the coil will have a hotter spark.

The early (NON ECU CONTROLLED) igniter module is considered a "dumb" module. This is because it cannot control the length of time that the coil gets to charge (Dwell).

Anyway, this igniter WILL work with megasquirt. Don't throw it away! I figured out how to use it to trigger megasquirt!! The igniter can be retained because it is specifically matched to the Toyota distributor. The igniter does a very good job of converting the alternating current .5 - 50.00 volts coming out of the distributor over into a useable pulsating signal that megasquirt can use.

VR sensor ignitions are prone to radio interference from electrical noise, and the VR signal can get disrupted. That is one reason to retain the stock Toyota igniter. It already has a very nice wire running from the distributor to the igniter box and the system is not susceptible to electrical interference.

The following information shows how to wire up a Megasquirt I with a Version 3.0 board using 2 modules to control spark as well as feed Megasquirt the basic RPM input. The Toyota igniter will no longer be used for driving the coil. Instead, the negative coil wire on the igniter will simply provide a line input into Megasquirt. As always, my method is only one way to do it, but it is extremely easy and cheap.

I will make a wiring diagram tonight for more information. But here is a picture of how I hooked it up. I made my own test ignition on a piece of plywood using a stock 1984 Toyota Celica Igniter. I also used a Bosch Hall sensor module.

The Bosch module that I used is designed for Hall distributors. Hall distributors send out a square DC voltage wave. Hall sensors send a +5 or +12 volt signal and a ground signal that switches on and off. This is the same type of signal that comes from the negative coil wire on the Toyota Igniter. The Bosch module is very simple. Because it uses a simple on and off switch to trigger it, you can literally trigger a Bosch module with a toggle switch. You just need a very small pulsating current. The Bosch module provides the brute power. All you need to do is provide the small signal to it. The signal can come from a toggle switch, a Hall distributor, a Toyota Igniter box, or a Megasquirt output wire.

So here is how it works. In order to avoid using Megasquirt to drive a coil, which puts more strain on Megasquirt, you can use a Bosch ignition module to provide high current to the coil. The Bosch module will absorb the extra heat and load, making the Megasquirt more reliable. The Bosch module is also a "Smart" module that will not overcharge the coil. If you get the right Bosch module, as listed below, you will have automatic dwell control. No other modules except Ford EDIS has built in Dwell control. Normally you have to "guess" at the proper Dwell. Ford EDIS and Bosch "smart" modules are the only ones that allow automatic dwell, that means less hassle when trying to configure megasquirt.

To set it all up, you disconnect your coil from your Toyota igniter. Because Megasquirt needs a regular on and off signal to trigger it, you will need to put a tiny 1000 ohm resistor between the positive wire and the negative wire where your coil used to be. Now throw away your Toyota coil. Run the negative coil wire into megasquirt on the proper ignition input pin. The tiny resistor is necessary because it keeps a tiny amount of positive voltage on the negative igniter output wire when the igniter is switched off. This makes the igniter output wave the same as a "Hall" sensor wave from a VW distributor.

The Megasquirt will read the Toyota ignition pulse like a digital wave and it can process it according to the settings you want to use. For the output, you simply send a wire from the Ignition output on Megasquirt to the Bosch Hall sensor module. The megasquirt sends a tiny low voltage pulse to the Bosch Module. When it receives the pulse, it will fire a coil.

You need to get a Bosch module and matching coil from the same car. Any module with the following part # is a smart module and it will control dwell. Because of this you don't have to worry about burning up the module or burning up your coil, or losing your megasquirt while driving down the road. Even better, unlike an HEI system, the Bosch module can receive a direct full 12 volt signal. You don't need a special relay or resistor to provide power to the module. It is very sophisticated for its size and is very rugged, it comes with a large heat sink on OEM applications. Be sure to get the heat sink and use it!

So here is a summary, if it wasn't clear:

You will use the stock "non-TCCS" igniter to trigger Megasquirt. You will use a Hall sensor Bosch module to receive the ignition output from Megasquirt. This Bosch module will also provide the correct amperage and voltage to drive a coil. It will also provide the correct dwell. The only thing the Bosch module needs is an output from Megasquirt.

First, You remove the stock Toyota coil. Jumper a 1000 ohm resistor between the positive and negative leads on the igniter where the coil used to be. Run the negative coil wire into megasquirt. See the following pictures for more information.

The reason that you would hook things up this way is very obvious. I have researched this a great deal and have found the following benefits to using external modules to run the ignition.

-The coil driver on the Megasquirt 3.0 PCB (the VB921) can burn up if you do not set the Dwell properly with the coil that you are using.

-The Bosch "smart" module can automatically set the dwell period. If used with the matched Bosch coil, you will not burn up the Bosch module or coil due an improper setting in Megasquirt.

-The Bosch module is external and it can be replaced for free with another junkyard module if it burns up. It is easier to access because it can be mounted in the engine compartment. They are waterproof and heat proof.

-The Megasquirt V 3.0 PCB board has an option for VR sensing. This VR sensing circuit is not as user friendly as a Toyota igniter. The VR wires going from the distributor to the computer box could receive radio interference from spark plug wires, or other electrical noise. The internal VR circuit in Megasquirt is adjustable via two tiny rheostats. Sometimes the VR signal won't work and these tiny adjustments must be made on the Megasquirt board to make the VR signal trigger properly. Sometimes the VR sensing circuit works improperly causing sporadic operation of the ignition system. Overall the VR input circuit on Megasquirt is slightly less user friendly and more difficult to implement than a simple existing Toyota Igniter.

-The Toyota igniter is rock solid. It is immortal.

-The Bosch modules are very reliable.

-This system makes Megasquirt far easier to implement for spark on the 1983 and 1984 22RE engines with the mechanical distributor. For more info see pics.


The following Bosch modules are "smart" modules. If it isn't listed here, it is a "dumb" module and it will not control the dwell. It could cause a problem with your coil unless you know how to set the dwell properly in Megasquirt. I recommend using only the smart modules.

BOSCH MODULE NUMBERS#

0 221 600 001
0 221 600 006
0 221 600 008
0 221 600 011
0 227 100 100
0 227 100 101
0 227 100 103
0 227 100 104
0 227 100 113
0 227 100 116
0 227 100 118
0 227 100 137
0 227 100 138
0 227 100 139
1 227 010 001
1 227 010 004
1 227 010 100
1 227 022 008
   
   



See next post for wiring diagrams.

 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 03:40:55 pm by supermuble »


1984 Celica GT. Early 22-RE. Turbo @ 6 PSI. Intercooled. HKS Turbo Manifold. Garrett T3 Turbocharger. Homeade downpipe, Volvo BOV. Oil Cooler. Just bought Megasquirt Kit 5/17/2007 - let the assembly begin!

Offline dcg9381

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2007, 08:24:42 pm »
Interesting.. I've always wondered if the stock ignitor would limit the current available to a coil.. IE make using an aftermarket "larger" coil of limited use.

Questions:
1) Your photos show that you're using a vac advance distributor.  Are you removing the mechanical or vacuum advance mechanisms?

2) One of the most important things to figure out before you build or buy megasquirt is how you're configuring the ignition input and output.  You've got a 12v square wave as the ignition input.  What circuit / setup are you using on the ignition input pin of megasquirt?  There are a bunch of variations.  (probably hall effect, low/high or high/low)

3) How are you setting up the ignition output circuit of megasquirt?   Dunno if the bosche module uses 5v, 12v, etc?

When you get around to implementing this on the car, might take screen shots of the initial megatune config - there are a lot of choices in those menus...

I'd love to see your timing map, with a normal compression 22RE at 6psi...  

Offline 83GTCoupe

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2007, 08:27:55 pm »
Again with some awesome stuff supermuble. :thumbs: Can't wait to see the end results.
"There are only three types of people: Those who MAKE it happen, Those who WATCH it happen, and Those who wonder... "What just happened?" TimmyRigTech Snooch to the nooch!

Offline celica83_gts

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 03:47:34 am »
When I'm ready to go spark I might try this with the '83 ignitor and the '86 distributor. I had planned on an EDIS install, but never managed to get it done. This is another viable option, thanks supermuble!
    

'83 Celica GTS, 22RTE swap, Garrett GT28R, Supra rear suspension swap w/ 3.73 LSD, Megasquirt EFI
13.940 1/4 mile
SOLD

'90 2WD pickup,  Rat-rod stylin'

'86 Pontiac Grand Prix, 6.0 LS, TH400, Moser 9"
'01 Lexus IS300

Offline supermuble

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2007, 04:52:55 am »
Here is a diagram I made on how to wire the old (non-ECU controlled) igniter, with a Toyota VR sensor distributor (new or old) to Megasquirt. There is also a diagram to show how to hookup a Bosch module. You can see that each module does a separate task. I have updated this post to show the final project. It has been tested and it works the way I thought it would when hooked into a Megasquirt using Megasquirt and Spark - Extra running on the version 3.0 PCB with a Version I processor.

When using Megasquirt, you won't need an adjustable distributor. You will need to lock the distributor to the engine block and remove any advance mechanisms.

The newer distributors that have no advance should work great, as they also have a VR sensor. Alternately, if using the old distributor with vacuum advance, you need to simply put caps on the vacuum canister (disconnect the vacuum hoses). Then simply remove the weights and springs from the mechanical advance, and lock the magnetic trigger wheel to the shaft by welding, thread locker liquid, or bolts. The distributor may need to be modified slightly so do not make any permanent changes until after the car is started and tuned.

As far as the Megasquirt input, I used the 12 volt Hall input, High to Low signal. (per Megasquirt and Spark - Extra instructions in the manual). With the setup I've described, the signal is high (12+) all the time because of the small resistor. When a rotor blade passes the VR sensor, it triggers, thus providing a ground signal to come out of the black igniter wire. The black igniter wire will be grounded only for a brief moment and then it will go back to being positive in between each rotor blade.

HALL SENSOR ON V 3.0 PCB

For the ignition output in Megasquirt using the version 3.0 Board with MegasquirtnSpark-Extra, it is very easy. See picture below and the Megasquirt link.






Bosch Module Wiring with PCB 3.0 - Mega Manual



And here is the final completed Megasquirt with the setup that I have described. Neither the Bosch module, Toyota igniter, coil or Megasquirt board show any abnormal heating. Even with the power on continuously (non switched) there are no heat issues. (This is due to the Bosch module automatically preventing coil overcharging - excessive dwell.)

I am very happy. I've retained the stock ignitor and coil (both Toyota). My goal was to avoid using an internal VR sensor and internal coil driver in the Megasquirt case. Further testing will be done when this system is implemented on my car. The good news is that this system should work on "any" VR sensor car (including all Toyota's) from any year.

As a note, I chose to use a 12 volt Hall input signal on the board for testing. I found that a 670 ohm resistor on the coil wire gave approximately 8 volts between trigger events. The 1K resistor only gave 6 volts, so I decided on a 670 ohm resistor. I cannot determine which resistor is the best one to use at this point.



« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 02:43:32 am by supermuble »


1984 Celica GT. Early 22-RE. Turbo @ 6 PSI. Intercooled. HKS Turbo Manifold. Garrett T3 Turbocharger. Homeade downpipe, Volvo BOV. Oil Cooler. Just bought Megasquirt Kit 5/17/2007 - let the assembly begin!

Offline michaelhaynes110

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2007, 04:16:03 pm »
edit - read your post again and realised it answered all my questions.  
« Last Edit: May 20, 2007, 04:19:15 pm by michaelhaynes110 »

Offline michaelhaynes110

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #6 on: Nov 03, 2007, 03:21:29 am »
Just to clarify, you are using the stock igniter to get the vr signal clean?  Mine is reading fine but I am thinking I want to stay away from the direct coil control.  I can just use one of the listed bosch ignition modules and the stock coil and just wire it as per this diagram?

http://img6.pictiger.com/oi/6e/8dc954e1ccb...pg?u=1193062508

Offline dcg9381

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #7 on: Nov 06, 2007, 11:28:28 pm »
Quote
Just to clarify, you are using the stock igniter to get the vr signal clean?  Mine is reading fine but I am thinking I want to stay away from the direct coil control.  I can just use one of the listed bosch ignition modules and the stock coil and just wire it as per this diagram?

http://img6.pictiger.com/oi/6e/8dc954e1ccb...pg?u=1193062508
The ignitor doesn't convert to a square wave on the non-EFI cars?

Why shy away from coil control - the Bosche units are smart, but it's hard to tell what their internal dwell is set at (assuming you've got one w/o smart dwell).
For turbo apps, you may want more dwell.
 

Offline Teranfirbt

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #8 on: Nov 07, 2007, 12:05:10 am »
If you use the early igniter to clean up the VR signal, you won't be able to control it with the ECU because it fires every time it gets a pulse from the VR sensor.
The smart Bosch module, 7 pin HEI module, MSD box, etc are the way to go if you don't want to worry about dwell...  
1983 Celica GT-S 2RZ swap: Deered 2014 :(
1986 Tercel 4WD 4AFE Swap: Going strong
1986 MR2: What a beast!
2014 Elantra GT: The reliable one

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~ Albert Einstein

Offline 83GTCoupe

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #9 on: Nov 07, 2007, 12:24:24 am »
So now I need to add yet another part to my MS build list? :huh:  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: Nov 07, 2007, 12:24:34 am by 83GTCoupe »
"There are only three types of people: Those who MAKE it happen, Those who WATCH it happen, and Those who wonder... "What just happened?" TimmyRigTech Snooch to the nooch!

Offline Teranfirbt

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #10 on: Nov 07, 2007, 01:36:01 am »
Probably. I thought you were going EDIS though?
1983 Celica GT-S 2RZ swap: Deered 2014 :(
1986 Tercel 4WD 4AFE Swap: Going strong
1986 MR2: What a beast!
2014 Elantra GT: The reliable one

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~ Albert Einstein

Offline 83GTCoupe

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #11 on: Nov 07, 2007, 01:41:13 am »
Well eventually I will go EDIS, but I have to get it in the car and figure out the tuning first. I no sooner picked up and installed the IATS, and then I find out I need the PWM valve too. :rolleyes: This looks like it'll do the trick though for the ignition.
« Last Edit: Nov 07, 2007, 07:23:33 am by 83GTCoupe »
"There are only three types of people: Those who MAKE it happen, Those who WATCH it happen, and Those who wonder... "What just happened?" TimmyRigTech Snooch to the nooch!

Offline michaelhaynes110

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #12 on: Nov 07, 2007, 07:02:43 am »
Well guys, I have spark.  I will update tomorrow when I get more time to test.

Offline Teranfirbt

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #13 on: Nov 07, 2007, 08:31:15 am »
Quote
Well eventually I will go EDIS, but I have to get it in the car and figure out the tuning first. I no sooner picked up and installed the IATS, and then I find out I need the PWM valve too. :rolleyes: This looks like it'll do the trick though for the ignition.
Ah
You'll probably want to switch to the later igniter or a GM 7-pin HEI module. Both the VAST ignition and the HEI are well documented on the MSnSE site. Actually, I think VAST is better explained in the DIYautotune.com tech articles..
« Last Edit: Nov 07, 2007, 08:31:39 am by Teranfirbt »
1983 Celica GT-S 2RZ swap: Deered 2014 :(
1986 Tercel 4WD 4AFE Swap: Going strong
1986 MR2: What a beast!
2014 Elantra GT: The reliable one

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." ~ Albert Einstein

Offline michaelhaynes110

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Early 22re With Megasquirt Ignition
« Reply #14 on: Nov 09, 2007, 06:51:53 am »
After trying to find reference to the modules listed I found only the connectors listed on the Bosch website.  After emailing Bosch they replied as below. You guys may find this helpful, its for Australia but probably pretty standard across the board now.

Quote
We would like to advise:
0 221 600 001 current, Coil and module assy.
0 221 600 006 use 0 221 600 001
0 221 600 008 NLA, coil 0 221 122 334
0 221 600 011 use BIM137 + 0 221 122 369 coil
0 227 100 100 use BIM137
0 221 100 001 use BIM 137
0 227 100 103 use BIM137
0 227 100 104 use BIM137
0 227 100 113 use BIM137
0 227 100 116 use BIM137
0 227 100 118 use BIM137
0 227 100 137 use BIM137
0 227 100 138 use BIM137
0 227 100 139 use BIM139
1 227 010 001 use BIM 137
1 227 010 004 not for Australia NLA
1 227 010 100 unknown
1 227 022 008 use BIM137.