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Author Topic: General questions pertaining to IFS swap  (Read 294 times)

Offline Jon in SD

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General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« on: Aug 23, 2019, 03:16:41 pm »
I just introduced myself over in the intros forum and come here with a specific question or line of inquiry. 

I do not presently nor have I ever owned a RWD Toyota, but come from the similar era of RWD Volvo.  I am interested 2nd and 3rd generation Celicas and want to shift my current direction with a Volvo 2 series track car and instead build a Celica for the track and canyon duties.  That said, I have Volvo hot rod parts including motors and want to drop that into the Celica.  They are rear sump and theres the rub with the rear steering Celicas. 

I can either dry sump the motors, alter the white block FWD pan, or swap in a new IFS subframe.  I looked at new hot rod stuff from Fatman and Art Morrison.  Not cheap, but nothing will be if I commit to a rear sump motor.

I figure if I put all the T3 goodies in the front end I'm looking at $3K in parts alone, and I'd still be left trying to solve the steering fitment.  I'd be in another 3K by the time the motor is dry sumped and ready to go in.  Or I could get a complete new subframe that has new off the shelf parts and nice 2.7 lock to lock steering rack.  Then is will be an easy drop-in for a Volvo 5 cylinder.  Yes, I have a serious love affair for the 5 cylinder noise.  I also like the idea of mixing Swedish and Japanese dragon cultures and two obscure platforms. 

At this point, I'm trying to see if there is something I am overlooking like an OEM Toyota option in respect to K-member that'll allow for a rear sump option.  I figure I could convert the 22re to rear sump after the IFS swap just to take it in financially manageable increments and work out the kinks in each segment while getting focused for the next. 

In the end, I'm looking for a canyon carver that will be DD'd without knocking out grandma's fillings.

Offline 83_Celica

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #1 on: Aug 24, 2019, 03:53:16 am »
Well you should go with a dry sump if you are going to go with a track set up to avoid the rack and pinion since it is mounted to the rear of the sub frame on the the 3rd gen

Offline ozzie

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #2 on: Aug 24, 2019, 06:42:38 am »
So...I know nothing about volvo motors, but I have watched a few videos on youtube where they basically cut a stamped steel oil pan off the flange, spun it around, and welded it back on. They then modified the pickup with some metal tubing the right diameter to put it in the right spot for the new sump location.

The AA6x, SA6x, and TA6x all probably had different subframes, for the 4A, 2S, and 3T motors. I have no idea if any of them were rear sump, and I don't want to be up all night googling images of subframes from foreign cars.

A new custom subframe would be very pricy, but it would also allow you complete freedom to set up the front suspension geometry to exactly what you wanted, and given your goals, it *might* be worth it. OTOH, straight 6s sound pretty good too...
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Offline Teranfirbt

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #3 on: Aug 24, 2019, 09:03:50 pm »
If the oil pan is stamped steel it'd be pretty straight forward to cut and weld to make it front sump like the Celica. If it's an alloy pan, that changes everything, as welding oil soaked aluminum castings is effectively impossible. Are there any options for aftermarket pans that bolt onto the Volvo engine to convert it to front sump?
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Offline Jon in SD

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #4 on: Aug 26, 2019, 12:10:53 pm »
I appreciate the comments! 

The white block i’d Use is the 5 cylinder and is all aluminum.  The red blocks are 4 cylinders (or 6cyl) and pretty much the 350 Chevy (abundant and cheap) of Europe. 

Yeah the red (iron) block has a steel pan and I have the parts for an easy 350hp turbo 4, but in the long term, I want a car that will harbor the 5cyl.

Volvo guys chop up the white block oil pan to put the 5pot in everything from 240’s to Amazon 122’s. Converting to front sump would be challenging for the white block.  I think the oil pump on the red block goes to the bottom of the rear sump pan. They do cut and weld the oil pumps when they change from slant to vertical configuration. 

I started thinking about the IFS swap as a means to get the best front end configuration possible in one purchase and drop in the motor instead of spending several K on parts made for it or swapping/modding in AE86 or S13 parts. 


Offline Jon in SD

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #5 on: Aug 26, 2019, 02:14:16 pm »
Anyone have the inside measurement of the frame rails where the k-member bolts up?  And the WMS to WMS width of the front end?

Offline Teranfirbt

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #6 on: Aug 26, 2019, 11:55:53 pm »
At the end of the day if you go rear sump you'll want to mess around with steering. The rack is the main thing that's in your way and it's not a simple item to move. If you rotate the steering arms 180 to make the car front steer then you have to mod the arms to fix your ackerman. Relatively easy to do, but it's possible it'll interfere with the brakes once you get the tie rod ends in the right place in front of the struts.
Did a little googlin' on those 5 pot oil pans, definitely not something that's easy to make work with a north-south setup. You almost need the crossmember to go under the whole pan or maybe some kind of crazy wrap around setup.
1983 Celica GT-S 2RZ swap: Deered 2014 :(
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1986 MR2: What a beast!
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Offline 85GTS

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #7 on: Sep 03, 2019, 05:53:07 am »
2nd gen celicas are mid/rear sump, crossmember might be close enough to modify. That said they also used a steering box with an idler on the passenger side, not a rack and pinion like the 3rd gens, so theres still steering to contend with...
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Offline Sigma Projects

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Re: General questions pertaining to IFS swap
« Reply #8 on: Sep 06, 2019, 10:55:38 pm »
I love these crazy ideas. Looking forward to your progress.

Anyone know the frame rail distance on our cars? The front cross member on the MA70 Supra has front mounted steering rack and all the suspension arms are bolted to the cross member and not the unibody.

Forum post with the parts off a MA70 and towards the bottom they have measurements of the cross member.
http://www.supraforums.com.au/forum/topic/62360-ma70-suspension-basic-measurements/
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