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Author Topic: Comprehensive Sra Suspension Tuning Guide  (Read 68960 times)

Offline GtEunuch

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Comprehensive Sra Suspension Tuning Guide
« Reply #15 on: Mar 14, 2006, 02:02:03 am »
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Well, for me the thing I'm looking for is a setup that isn't to brutal on the street.  The roads here in SAn Antonio are known for their problems so I'm looking for something that will perform great on the street and work just as well on the track.

I've read everthing so far and I find it interesting that you haven't mentioned the Koni's and I'm wondering if their shocks/struts are not as good as the ones you have mentioned thus far.

Also, do you have any idea how much everything would cost: shocks, springs, swaybars, bushings and anything else you can think of?
I will try and work up a price on each setup for the last post, i still dont have time to do it yet ;) but also, as far as koni's go, they are a REALLY good shock/strut but the adjustments on them are odd, like they dont have a simple knob that you turn on most models, and from my experience they are EXTREMLY easy to blow, and if you blow a shock, with stock springs, they are covered under warranty. If you blow a shock with aftermarket springs you are up a river.

Also, if i remember right, i could easily be wrong with this statement though, they dont make koni's for the front of an MR2 that can be used with our car. I think they only make the entire strut, not just the strut insert that we need. Also though, if you are going for a not so brutal setup, you can still use the tokico blues and you will be fine.... no need for a short stroke setup, which is what HAS to be run if you use the mr2 struts...

and what is your opinion of brutal? i can live with my setup no problem ( the middle/autocross setup ) but my g/f always complains about her bewbies when i hit a big bump lol so... yea, and my setup is really annoying for a road trip over 50 miles...

84' Celica GT ( 84 F Street Prepared )
Representing GT Liftbacks since August 2002

Offline GtEunuch

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« Reply #16 on: Mar 14, 2006, 05:38:05 pm »
Okay last installment!!!

A: Addco sways front and maybe rear ( and polybushings )
B: Techno Toy Tuning Camber Plates
C: Supra wheels or other similar size wheels ( rewinds, etc ) with 195/60r14 tires
D: Limited Slip Differential ( PG Powerbrute, Kaaz, etc. )
E: Alignment Settings

We will go over this stuff today, hopefully i will have time for it all

Addco sways ( and polybushings )

http://www.addco.net/

Okay swaybars can be added at ANY stage of your suspension. Even if your suspension is completely stock, they can greatly affect how your car handles. Using both front and rear swaybars can increase your amount of grip in corners by incredible amounts. Although if you are setting your car up for a tight track ( like autocross ) or drifting you dont want to really increase all around grip. What i do in this instance ( like everytime i go to autocross, i install my stock rear swaybar, inplace of the aftermarket Addco unit. This increases front grip, and actually reduces rear grip, to allow the rear end to rotate a little more, and help me get through the tight parts of the course easier.

Addco sways come with Polyurethane bushings for the endlinks, and for the spots where the swaybars connect to the rear end/chassis. This is a good start for polyurethane bushings BUT in order to get the most out of your car, you need to replace ALL of the 20 year old decrepid bushings in your car. This includes the front control arm bushings ( one each side ), rear control arm bushings ( also called 4 links ), the panhard bar, and all of the swaybar mounting bushings ( which, if you have the addco kit, you dont need to worry about ).

http://www.energysuspension.com/

When installing these components, alot of times, to reduce the amount of work, you need a press, but they can all be replaced by hand. It just takes alot of cursing and a few beers and you will get the bushings out. Installing the bushings is much easier in most cases, but make sure that you use PLENTY of poly grease to help make the installation easier, and most importantly it will reduce squeaking. You may say that squeaking wouldnt bother you, but where there is squeaking, there is binding, and any binding of suspension components is BAD. It can make your suspension not work right, and in some cases it can cause damage to the components themselves. So... use lube... trust me on this one, and there is never too much. As stated before Energy Suspension makes a full set of bushings for us, also a company called Super Pro  makes bushings for our cars, and they can be found at 185performance. I would use Energy suspension tho, because i think Super pro bushings are made in Australia, so customer service may suck...

Techno Toy Tuning Camber Plates

Okay, Camber Plates. These can ONLY be used, if you have Coilovers in the front. They WILL NOT WORK if you are using lowering springs ( dobs, eibach, etc. ) because they actually get rid of the upper spring perch, and well, you need that lol. These allow you to dial in more camber on the front of your car which will help you on turn-in and corner grip. If you get this kit though, i would suggest buying the upper hat kit from them aswell. It uses needle bearings on the upper spring perch to allow the spring perch to turn smoothly on the camber plate. It just allows smoother operation and makes everything nice.

One thing about the camber plates though. THey are quite a bit thinner than the stock upper hats. They will lower your car another 1.5 inches or so. THis isnt a bad thing, because you have coilovers and you can just raise them back up 1.5 inches in order to get back to your origional height.

http://technotoytuning.com/
^ order directly through them!

Supra wheels or other similar size wheels ( rewinds, etc ) with 195/60r14 tires

Okay wheels and tires. Touchy subject, especially with you GTS guys and your truck tires...

But to get the most out of this suspension setup, you want to get a good set of wheels, Like the supra wheels. These wheels are wider, and have a much better offset than the stock wheels ( the 14x5.5's ) this extra width and the increased offset will actually give you a wider overall track. It wont give you like a Foot of anything but it could give you about a 4 inch wider track from front to back, allowing yet again, more grip. Wheels like the konig rewinds ( which can be ordered through Techno Toy Tuning ) are the same size ( 14x7 ) as the supra wheels, but they have an even better offset, which will give you a little bit more track thus increasing grip more too. The konigs are actually even lighter than the supra wheels, and we all know that lighter is better! The supra wheels are great wheels though. THey arent too heavy, they have a good width, a good offse, and they look great, so dont knock the supras until you try them.

Tires... I have gotten alot of grief on this subject. and i think, that for supra wheels, or konigs ( the 14x7 wheels ) the tire size of 195/60r14 is the best size that you can go with. With this size tire, sidewall flex is decreased by alot ( compared to much wider tires ) and this allows the turn in to be crisper. I did not like the feel of 225/60r14's. They made my car feel terrible, like it wasnt in full contact with the road. the 195's are crisp, and if you have your suspension set up good, they can offer more grip than you will ever need. Also, this tire size is pretty much the biggest tire size that you can go to with out having rubbing issues with the front fenders.

ooh yea and NEVER stagger your tires. like 195/60's up front and say 215/60's in the back. Unless you have alot of power ( which MOST of us really dont ) or you have your suspension set up to take advantage of the wider rear tires ( which you shouldn't ) you do not need the extra width at all. This setup will make you Understeer ( plow ) into corners, and that is just no fun at all, and it makes you really slow in the turns....

Limited Slip Differential ( PG Powerbrute, Kaaz, etc. )

This should clear up alot of things. But this can be added at any stage of your suspension upgrades. From stock to wild, this stuff will help.

The Pg Power Brute Limited Slip differential is a clutch type unit that is GREAT for the track, autocross, and everyday. It offers tons of grip ( or allows you to slide easier  ;) ), reduces understeer, and eliminates the "one wheel peel" that all of us Gt Lovers have fallen in Loathe with. This MUST be installed by a professional though, it is really not something that is easy to install yourself. I would suggest going to a local 4x4 shop and seeing if they can set it up for you. I got mine done for about 200 dollars and i havent had a problem with it at all.

The Kaaz limited slip differential for the Ae86, is a touchy subject. It has not been tried BUT it SHOULD work. It can work with ae86's that origionally did not have limited slip differentials ( in this case the ae86 owner would have to shave a bit off the ends of the axles in order to get the limited slip from another LSD equipped ae86 to fit, just like we have to do to make a LSD from a ae86 work in our cars ).  I do not know if we need the Zenki or the Kouki differential, but it is whichever one can accept axles with 23 splines. Once again, i have personally not tried this but it SHOULD work without a problem.

Alignment Settings

Okay, after you install any major suspension component i would suggest getting your car aligned. This will make sure that everything is setup the way it is supposed to and it will make your car handle like it is supposed to.

With the basic setup i would suggest getting a stock alignment. all stock settings, and you will be good to go. This is actually a pretty good setting for all levels, but when you are racing i would suggest going a little more custom on your settings.

these are my settings right now

camber: -2 degrees
caster: stock
toe: 0

i really like how my car handles at this alignment setting, but on the highway the car does seem a bit twitchy, and this is because of the toe setting. At autocross speeds this really helps improve front end grip, and when i am driving through backroads it really feels good. But i would go more into the alignment settings, but this is something that you should figure out on your own. Each person has a different taste in what they want, and a different goal that they are trying to accomplish so this is something that you must figure out yourself.

That ends this little write up, and well, i just want to tell you guys that this is just a BASIC write up. Like i said with the alignment, i have gone by my personal tastes in how this car should handle, and that is nuetral. Everyone has different goals, so you may want to do some trial and error to help make YOUR car handle the way YOU want, not the way I want, even though my way is amazing  ;)

So what do you guys think!? Good?

84' Celica GT ( 84 F Street Prepared )
Representing GT Liftbacks since August 2002

Offline OldMage

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« Reply #17 on: Mar 14, 2006, 06:17:22 pm »
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Also though, if you are going for a not so brutal setup, you can still use the tokico blues and you will be fine....
I personally found the Tokico 'blues'  to be too harsh w/ my Eibach springs (and they're progressive-wound) after a year on 'em.  I switched to Gabriel VSTs (called something else now, "Ultra" I think).  I'm told the Monroe Sensa-Trac's are even better shocks/struts.

IMHO, a reasonable street setup can be had from moderate lowering w/ realistic-rate springs & good dampers (likely your choice) and an upgraded front swaybar.  Adding the rear bar will increase the tail-happy nature of the car, so if you're after a 'grip' approach, you might consider skipping the rear swaybar.  For the IRS, poly is a must.  It's a good idea for the rest of the suspension also.


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Offline GtEunuch

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« Reply #18 on: Mar 14, 2006, 06:35:13 pm »
About the swaybar thing, i promise you it adds more grip. i have done quite a bit of testing on this, with my car and my freinds supra, and a stiff front and a soft rear swaybar increases the tail happy nature of the car. I honestly does not know how this actually works, but i promise you, that adding a rear swaybar increases the level of grip... i swear on my life lol....

i think it increases the front grip by x amount, and it leaves the rear grip alone, so if that is what it does... it would do the same thing as say, racing slicks on the front and street tires in the rear... more front end grip, and the same rear grip would equal oversteer. this is how it works on my car and it is and it is what alot of RWD autocross people do, my friend with a 3rd gen rx7 does it ( national champ ), a bunch of miata guys do it, and well... i am not the only one obviously that thinks this way, so it isnt just me... ;) i will do some research and tell you exactly why it does it tho...

I really do not know why this works, but it does for me... thats the only thing that i really do not understand suspension wise on our cars... i am gonna try to figure out why it does it but it does... lol
« Last Edit: Mar 14, 2006, 07:16:43 pm by GtEunuch »

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Offline SonyPete

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« Reply #19 on: Mar 14, 2006, 07:38:28 pm »
Well it all depends on the current setup.

Quote
A big bar on the front, increases rear lateral and motive traction.
A big bar on the rear, increases front lateral and motive traction.

If the car is understeering, decrease front bar size, or increase
rear bar size. This increases front lateral grip and decreases rear lateral grip
giving the car a more neutral to oversteer feel. Reverse the process for
too much oversteer.

You can have rotation due to loss of rear traction or gain of front traction.

On a stock celica a stiffer rear say will cause rotation due to loss of rear traction becasue the soft rear springs allow the stiffer rear sway bar to lift of the inside-rear tire, causing you to lose traction.
(More streetable due to not requiring stiffer springs)

Now on a celica with fairly stiff springs, a stiffer rear sway will cause more rotation due to increasing the front lateral grip not the rear losing traction since the rear inside tire no longer lifts up, losing pressure.
(Less streetable due to requiring stiffer springs)


EnunchGT is able to get more rotation in the tight autocross course due to loss of rear traction not gain of front lateral traction. Either or has there pros and cons. I would think more rotation due to lose of traction as being the not-so-good way to go but todo it the other way you have to really up your spring stiffness and thats not always desirable on street cars.
« Last Edit: Mar 14, 2006, 07:43:06 pm by SonyPete »

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Offline WolfBoy

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« Reply #20 on: Mar 14, 2006, 08:36:17 pm »
Ok, I've taken some notes and this has really given me some good ideas for my car.  I'm looking for a set-up that has a little bit of oversteer to it and with the info you have provided me I think I know how to go about it now.  
 

Offline OldMage

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« Reply #21 on: Mar 15, 2006, 07:18:24 pm »
Quote
EnunchGT is able to get more rotation in the tight autocross course due to loss of rear traction not gain of front lateral traction. Either or has there pros and cons. I would think more rotation due to lose of traction as being the not-so-good way to go but todo it the other way you have to really up your spring stiffness and thats not always desirable on street cars.
He's not losing quite so much rear traction since he put in his PG PowerBrute LSD... :P


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Offline hooper62

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« Reply #22 on: Mar 17, 2006, 05:52:24 am »
where is a place to get bushings? im redoing all the suspension on my car and i need bushings...
also, what size is the stock sway bar?


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Offline buzzbomber85gt

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« Reply #23 on: Mar 21, 2006, 08:54:11 pm »
Quote
where is a place to get bushings? im redoing all the suspension on my car and i need bushings...
also, what size is the stock sway bar?
autozone sells most of the energy suspension bushings that are available for us. I'm sure about the stock rear bar size tho...

what about the adjustable panhard bars?

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Offline hooper62

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« Reply #24 on: Mar 27, 2006, 04:26:18 am »
only most... how many is it missing...
 


1983 Celica GT
Mods:
Thorley Header
2.5" Magnaflow Exhaust
Supra AFM
Engbldr 270 Camshaft
Dobinson Springs
Kyb GR2 Shock
Addco Front Sway Bar
Energy Suspension Poly Bushings Front and Rear
16x8 0 offset Sportmax with 205/50/16 Kuhmo Ecsta's.

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Offline jewe2

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« Reply #25 on: Apr 26, 2006, 07:40:22 pm »
Posted in the wrong thread, sorry.
« Last Edit: Apr 27, 2006, 12:03:47 am by jewe2 »

Offline molano

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« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2006, 09:46:40 pm »
does 185performance still sell the front springs  http://www.185performance.com/zen/index.ph...roducts_id=3107
says "Sorry, the product was not found."  or is there another place to find it. thx =)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 09:48:10 pm by molano »
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Offline Teranfirbt

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« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2006, 04:37:41 am »
They're probably just sold out right now...
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Offline Dougs85GT

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« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2006, 08:02:37 am »
My plan is to go

css all around with a 2 inch drop and 40-50 percent sping rate increase

tokico blues all around

energy suspensiopn bushings

a heim joint 4 link (wondering if this is going to make the rear try to slide to much)

and a stiffer front swaybar


giong to be used as a daily driver with the occasional drag and drifting. Any thoughts? do you guys think the 4 link will hurt or improve my turns? I just dont want to take a turn at 25 and go sliding into a car.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2006, 09:26:09 am by misery »

Offline ra64drift

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« Reply #29 on: Jun 07, 2006, 10:05:10 pm »
any recomendations on a drift setup?
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